Loving Johnny Carson

1
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,040
But let me introduce you because
you and I have something in

2
00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:12,880
common.
We both love Johnny Carson.

3
00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,480
Mark Malkoff is joining us, and
he has written a book about it.

4
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,920
And we're going to talk about
Johnny Carson, the legend, the

5
00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,960
genius behind the legend.
Mark, if don't mind me asking

6
00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:29,640
you, but how old are you?
Jim, I am 49 years old.

7
00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,360
When Johnny Carson left the
airwaves May 22nd, 1992, I was

8
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,240
16 years old in Hershey, PA and
it broke my heart.

9
00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,160
You know me too because I have
so many memories with my dad and

10
00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:44,840
Johnny.
And I think people, I'm a little

11
00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:49,560
older than you, but we all grew
up watching Johnny with our dad

12
00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:54,120
or our mom or if we were lucky,
maybe by ourselves.

13
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,160
And I have to tell you, there
has been no one, no one that has

14
00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:07,880
ever been able to fill his
shoes.

15
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:09,320
Would you agree with that
statement?

16
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,320
I agree.
And just the fact that the

17
00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:15,520
current late night hosts are
still talking about Carson, you

18
00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,040
know, he hasn't been on the air
in 32 years and the fact that

19
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,840
they still talk about him as the
gold standard, they always do

20
00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,600
these polls every few years,
Greatest late night host of all

21
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,240
time, always Carson.
I mean, the work, the YouTube

22
00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,120
views, over 3 billion views of
Carson, people miss him.

23
00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,320
I mean, he was so good at what
he did.

24
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:40,320
I do see they are now getting a
clue and using Johnny clips and

25
00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:42,800
you start to see more and more
of them on social media.

26
00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,840
And actually I see a lot of
these old shows that we all grew

27
00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:47,920
up with just little one minute
clips.

28
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,040
And I think that's sort of
driven.

29
00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:53,800
And I, by the way, have a DVD
collection of the best of Johnny

30
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,280
Carson.
So I'm a dedicated fan.

31
00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,560
True and true.
But what?

32
00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,800
Tell me about your journey.
Did you ever meet him?

33
00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,000
I never met him, but I do wanna
mention those DVD's that you

34
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,440
have.
Carson picked out those clips

35
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,680
himself.
I mean, he was very involved in

36
00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,840
all those things.
I took the I wasn't old enough

37
00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,800
to see the show in person, but I
did take the tour of the studio

38
00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,440
tour when I was like 13.
I got to see the rainbow curtain

39
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,400
and this set and they could drag
me out because I was so excited

40
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,600
to be there.
So I, you know, I Doc

41
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,720
Severinsen, his producer Peter
LaSalle, and probably like 60 or

42
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,440
70 staffers I've talked to, but
I never got to meet the man.

43
00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:36,320
I grew up in the Midwest, kind
of a normal, I guess what you'd

44
00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,920
call normal upbringing, you
know, the part of the country my

45
00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:41,640
folks were supportive and what I
wanted to do.

46
00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:42,880
Did you always know what you
wanted to do?

47
00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:44,440
Oh yeah.
From the very.

48
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,920
Beginning Oh sure, how old I
must have been about 12-13 years

49
00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:49,520
old.
I knew I wanted to to entertain.

50
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:51,400
You like the attention?
Oh, sure.

51
00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,080
But why?
Why you?

52
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,280
I mean, why at age 12 or 13?
Because I was in a play or

53
00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,080
something and I got up and I did
something and people laughed and

54
00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:04,800
all of a sudden you say, hey,
that sounds pretty good.

55
00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,520
So it makes you the center of
attention.

56
00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,160
Yes, but why did you want the
attention?

57
00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:13,120
Why did you want the?
Attention.

58
00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:15,200
Why did I want the attention?
Because I was shy?

59
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,200
Because I was shy.
Now that sounds like a an

60
00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,680
ambivalence, right?
No, on stage, You see, when

61
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,880
you're on stage in front of an
audience, you are kind of in

62
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,280
control.
When you're off of the stage or

63
00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,880
in a situation with a lot of
people, you're not in control.

64
00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:31,560
And I felt awkward.
So I went into show business

65
00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:32,760
thinking it would give me a
little more.

66
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,640
I could overcome that shyness.
Where do you think the shyness

67
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,040
emanated from?
I bought it in Chicago and.

68
00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,480
You don't want to be the guy
that follows Johnny Carson.

69
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,360
I mean, that's like it was, you
know, tough.

70
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,160
I talked to Jay for 50 minutes
for the book and I was just

71
00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,880
saying that you know, it took
him Jay at least a year to

72
00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:57,320
figure out his show and you
know, Carson was a game show

73
00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,040
host.
So that's what America saw him

74
00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:00,800
as.
So when he took over The Tonight

75
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:03,680
Show October 1st 1962, it
definitely there was an

76
00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,560
adjustment period.
The most controversial late

77
00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,040
night host of all time.
Maybe Jack party get in a

78
00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,800
controversy cry on air and
critics were saying Carson

79
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,760
entertains he's dull he's
boring, but Johnny knew talent

80
00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,519
was gonna win out at the end and
just the fact I got to sit down

81
00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:23,520
with Mel Brooks and hear about
being on John's very first show

82
00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:28,560
October 1st 1962 get got all
these all these stories was

83
00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,520
amazing experience.
We are talking with Mark Malkov.

84
00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,240
He is written the book called
Love Johnny Carson, one

85
00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,400
obsessive fans journey to find
the genius behind the legend.

86
00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:43,440
I'll definitely want to read it.
And I I think that you capture a

87
00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:45,920
lot of the stories that maybe
many of us don't work.

88
00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,840
Like, for example, I did not
know that Johnny didn't want to

89
00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:55,320
do the follow up to Jack Paar
because he felt like he couldn't

90
00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,120
be that, you know, he had to be
an entertainment driven talent.

91
00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,640
But it was really his wife who
sort of courted him to the idea.

92
00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,000
Tell us about Joanne Carson, his
first wife, and how she got

93
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:07,960
involved in in getting Johnny
the slot.

94
00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,120
The Tonight Show never would
have happened with Carson

95
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,040
without Joanne.
She was wife number 2.

96
00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,680
They were dating at the time and
she was so driven.

97
00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,880
She did not.
Johnny did not know how powerful

98
00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,240
she was behind the scenes.
That's what Johnny's producer,

99
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,160
Peter LaSalle told me.
He she's the one that got Fred

100
00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,880
De Cordova hired Johnny's long
time producer, his money guy,

101
00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,640
Sonny Warblen, who got Johnny
with that clothing line and made

102
00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,400
all that money.
It was all hurt.

103
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,760
So she's the one because
everyone told Carson, don't take

104
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,040
it.
She was the one, we're going to

105
00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:39,920
do it together.
I know you can do this and

106
00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,400
convinced him to do it.
And what she did and Johnny

107
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,600
didn't know this, she got two
people from NBC, two decision

108
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,800
makers that come to a Friar's
Roast of Gary Moore where Johnny

109
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,640
was performing.
They were blown away.

110
00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,440
And then Joanne's like offered
The Tonight Show and that's when

111
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,240
he turned it down and she talked
him into it.

112
00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,200
And she was there in the front
row for months cheering him on.

113
00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,760
And whenever he stood up to the
network, he was very Nebraska

114
00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,240
where he's from non
confrontational.

115
00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,560
She was the one that it was like
you're you are going to go head

116
00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,760
and head with NBC.
And that's where Carson really

117
00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:15,320
did stand up to nap all her.
The story about his mom and how

118
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,840
he really wanted to impress her.
Tell us a little bit about that

119
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,360
and why that was such a
challenge for him.

120
00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:28,480
Ruth Carson in Nebraska would
brag about Johnny to her

121
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,120
friends, to reporters, but never
to Johnny.

122
00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,240
He could not get a compliment
out of her.

123
00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,200
Back then, I was told a lot of
times parents would not

124
00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,320
compliment their kids for if
you're giving their kids egos or

125
00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,040
big heads.
And no matter what Johnny did,

126
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,120
he just could not get a
compliment.

127
00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,120
And at Time magazine, there was
a reporter that watched an

128
00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,440
episode of The Tonight Show with
Ruth Carson.

129
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,000
And there was one joke where
Johnny was talking about a sex

130
00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,600
change operation and Mrs. Carson
was very conservative and said

131
00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:03,000
not funny, something like that.
And then it became the myth that

132
00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,800
she did not find her son funny
and told the journalist, I don't

133
00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:07,640
find Johnny funny, which wasn't
true.

134
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,760
But that really was an issue.
I mean, a bunch of those people

135
00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,760
like Gary Shandling, Dave
Letterman, a lot of them people

136
00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,880
look like that.
Mom issues for sure.

137
00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,720
Now I want to hear about Ed
McMahon.

138
00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,440
How did those two people get
paired up?

139
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,040
Ed McMahon was a game show
announcer on John Ish show Who

140
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:29,640
Do You?
Trust.

141
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,040
Is that right?
OK, so he had a history with

142
00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:33,000
Johnny.
I see.

143
00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,200
He did, but Johnny didn't want
to bring Ed.

144
00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,440
Johnny wanted to start off
completely fresh with nobody

145
00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:43,360
that was associated with the
game show, and Ed very wisely

146
00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,800
begged for the job.
Johnny was going to try to bring

147
00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:49,160
his friend in from California,
and the gentleman didn't want to

148
00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,080
relocate because back then it
was.

149
00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,400
It was inconceivable that a late
night show would go even more

150
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,760
than five years, let alone 10 or
30.

151
00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,280
Steve Allen and Jack Parr were
four and five years and this

152
00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:02,120
gentleman did not want to
relocate.

153
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,200
So Ed McMahon took Carson out to
dinner, got on his hands and

154
00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,920
knees, tears going down his
face, begging Johnny to take him

155
00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:10,480
with him.
And Johnny did and was the

156
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:15,320
smartest move McMahon ever made
in his career. 30 years of of

157
00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,880
employment and leveraging that
for all those endorsements.

158
00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,040
Star Search.
I mean he milked it for all it

159
00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,480
was worth.
Well, The thing is, is he wasn't

160
00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:28,480
particularly, I mean, he mainly
was a side guy who would laugh

161
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,840
at Johnny, but he had such a
good sense of timing too.

162
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,520
Like he knew when I guess that
was one of the funnier parts is

163
00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,600
when Johnny would tell a joke
that that fell flat and then

164
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,400
you'd have Ed laughing, but you
knew that Ed was actually

165
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,360
laughing at Johnny and that made
Johnny sort.

166
00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,160
And then according to Save the
Moment, you know, and that was

167
00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,280
that unusual chemistry that they
had.

168
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:53,640
That's right.
Their chemistry was

169
00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,080
unbelievable.
They were In Sync like 95% of

170
00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:58,480
the time.
They could read each other's

171
00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,320
thoughts.
They were very playful.

172
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,800
None of that.
The conversations were planned.

173
00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,080
When they would talk after the
monologue, it was really

174
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,160
unbelievable.
A couple times Ed stepped on

175
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:12,040
Johnny's lines and Johnny would
get upset, but for the most

176
00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,960
part, they were In Sync.
They were buddies in New York

177
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:17,680
during The Tonight Show.
Ed would kind of help Johnny

178
00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,760
home from the bars.
Johnny would talk on the air

179
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,080
about his struggle filled with
drinking, and he was a bad

180
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,360
drunk.
He would say that and just kind

181
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:28,960
of babysat him.
And then they got to California

182
00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:30,920
and they kind of went their
separate ways a little bit.

183
00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:34,840
Interesting cuz Ed was the one
that was accused of being a

184
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:40,640
little bit of a drinker but.
Those were manufactured jokes.

185
00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:43,600
There was one.
There's one video on YouTube

186
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,760
where it says Ed appears drunk,
where he was literally drunk.

187
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,560
He had gone out to lunch at the
Beverly Hills Polo Lounge with

188
00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,800
singer Paul Williams and this
gentleman Pat McCormack, one of

189
00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:58,400
Johnny's writers.
And Ed found out that two of two

190
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,680
court cases were settled in his
favor.

191
00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,320
And he never drank on show days.
But that was a rare time.

192
00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,600
And he's slurring his words.
And it's like Johnny's like

193
00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,520
you're not fooling anybody at
and a lot of people find it very

194
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,320
funny.
But that was the one time that

195
00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,840
had really was hammered.
This is funny.

196
00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,200
Did was Doc Gay?
Was Doc Severinsen?

197
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,800
Like they were sort of joking
around, but they sort of you got

198
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,440
the insinuation that he was a
little light in the loafers, as

199
00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,080
they used to say.
Was there anything to that, that

200
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,280
chemistry?
Doc Severinsen the bandleader

201
00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:34,000
and and Johnny.
No, Doc was a ladies man,

202
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,800
married many times.
Like, I mean, he it was the the

203
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:43,920
person that apparently was or
was Fred de Cordova, Johnny's

204
00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,880
long time producer of 28 years.
That that's what some people

205
00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,360
have told me that, that, that
he.

206
00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:55,840
But as people go, yeah, Doc, you
know, he didn't dress flash in

207
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,680
the beginning.
It just happened one night and

208
00:10:57,680 --> 00:10:59,360
Johnny's like keep it.
Yeah.

209
00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,680
And it lasted 25 years.
But Doc always would give Johnny

210
00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:05,920
material just based on what he
was wearing.

211
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,640
But yeah, he was.
Johnny loved the band.

212
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,120
They were an incredible group of
people.

213
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,960
And Doc is still kicking.
He's in Tennessee.

214
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,400
I haven't talked to him in like
a year, but we've talked on the

215
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,360
phone a bunch of times and he's
still practicing the trumpet.

216
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,480
And we'll never stop until you
know so.

217
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,960
Were you ever were you surprised
by anything that you learned

218
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:27,280
about Johnny that that you
didn't know before when you were

219
00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:28,000
doing the research?
I.

220
00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:33,120
Was I was surprised because the
media made him out to be cold

221
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,760
and aloof.
Joan Rivers and a few other

222
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,360
people, not many, said what a
terrible man he was.

223
00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,480
And those are not the stories I
got from the 400 people I talked

224
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,120
to.
I mean these are people that

225
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,080
kept saying I love Johnny
Carson, which is hence the

226
00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,120
title, love Johnny Carson.
His friends had never really

227
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,880
talked publicly until now and
the people that spent the most

228
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:56,240
time with him told me
consistently that he was almost

229
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,320
the same person on and off
camera.

230
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,960
Now it was a small group of
people he felt comfortable with.

231
00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,120
He was very shy if he didn't
know the person, but they told

232
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,560
me there was very little
difference between on and off.

233
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:09,000
And I found that to be
incredible because I did think

234
00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,640
that he was cold and aloof just
from what the media said.

235
00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,880
They made him out to be a
recluse in retirement, like a JD

236
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,240
Salinger, Greta Garbo.
And he was out and about having

237
00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,360
lunch with his writers.
He was on his boat taking trips

238
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,920
with NBC President Bob Wright.
He was at tennis tournaments.

239
00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,200
Really.
I feel like this is the book

240
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,080
that really did capture who
Johnny was.

241
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,280
Now there were warts, and we go
into that with his struggles

242
00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:33,800
with drinking, which got him in
trouble.

243
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,160
He definitely was flawed and
that's reflected in the book,

244
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,760
but just the generosity and
saving the comedian's life and

245
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,720
just being there for for so many
people shocked me.

246
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,760
I it was not the Carson I
thought that I was going to get

247
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,920
and that's that was that was it.
Rivers and Wayne Newton would

248
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,800
not talk to me.
Those were the two people that

249
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,200
really had problems with him.
Interesting.

250
00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:01,400
You know, there's there's so
much talk out there right now

251
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,560
about late night comedy and how
it's become political.

252
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,600
And there's a clip that's pretty
famous that you see it where

253
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:12,360
Johnny talks about the fact that
you cannot talk politics or hard

254
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,760
politics.
People have a long day.

255
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,920
They want to they want to laugh.
That's what he believed and and

256
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,720
that led to his great success.
You never knew what his politics

257
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,080
were because he was an equal
opportunity offender.

258
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,520
But how is it that the current
crop, you know, whether it's

259
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:34,200
Trevor Noah or Jimmy Fallon or
Jimmy Kimmel, they don't seem to

260
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,080
care about that.
And they've learned they've,

261
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,120
they've, it has cost them,
hasn't it, in terms of audience

262
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:41,920
size.
It's tough.

263
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,120
Network television viewership
goes down every single year

264
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:48,160
there.
I think everyone that's doing

265
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,000
it's talented.
But I mean, Carson was just such

266
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:54,120
a high bar.
I think it's just one of those

267
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,920
things like Johnny was like, why
would I alienate half my

268
00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,520
audience?
I he definitely believed in, I'm

269
00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,200
more of a fan of somebody just
going out there and being funny

270
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,000
and entertaining.
Johnny thought, you know, these

271
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:05,880
people are going to bed with me.
They just want to be

272
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,080
entertained.
And he would say, when did Bob

273
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,480
Hope or Jack Benny have
political opinions?

274
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,040
I mean, he would hammer whoever
was in office in good fun.

275
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,720
And that was the end of the day.
He's didn't think people would

276
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,120
be interested, nor did he want
to give his political opinions.

277
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,920
And I do think that there that
that is missing in late night.

278
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,520
It is very, very political with
people's not yet taking some

279
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,240
sides.
And I definitely think Carson is

280
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,440
is is definitely missed.
What's the deal between him and

281
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:36,560
Letterman?
Letterman.

282
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,840
Everybody sort of expected that
Letterman would be the heir

283
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,200
apparent to Johnny, and then
that didn't happen.

284
00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:44,720
Do you know why that didn't
happen?

285
00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,920
Yes, Johnny really wanted it to
be David Letterman but did not

286
00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,040
have any sway whatsoever.
So Jay let they wanted to get

287
00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,680
the permanent guest host
position to Garry Shandling who

288
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,440
turned it down.
So they they reluctantly gave it

289
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,800
to Jay Leno and his his manager.
How this woman Helen Kushnick

290
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,240
had Jay go to every single NBC
affiliate across the country and

291
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,520
politics shake hands, do favors
for the network and get in good

292
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,760
with everyone.
What whereas David Letterman was

293
00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,440
calling the NBC executives on
his show pin heads was making

294
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,840
fun of GE, the parent company.
So when it did come from, when

295
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:22,840
it came to the time, Letterman
just thought, you know, we've

296
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,960
been doing the show for 11
years, We won Emmys, They're

297
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,640
going to give it to me.
And that's just not how life

298
00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,760
works.
And Jay got the gig.

299
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,560
And Johnny wasn't, you know, was
not thrilled about it.

300
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:38,080
But yeah, I mean, Johnny's last
public appearance, May of 94,

301
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,400
was not with Jay.
It was with Dave Letterman.

302
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,680
It was when Dave took his show
to Los Angeles.

303
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,480
And Johnny comes on for a minute
and it's so emotional.

304
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,200
I mean, it's like Johnny, you
can tell he sits at Dave's desk

305
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,240
and he wants to say something.
Probably a really funny ad Lib

306
00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,680
joke and the audience that's so
thunderous.

307
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,400
Finally he gives up and walks
off and we never saw him again.

308
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,440
But the fact that he did that on
Dave's show speaks volumes.

309
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,840
Interesting.
Do you think was Seinfeld ever

310
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:10,000
offered an opportunity to do?
A was never Seinfeld said is

311
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,640
said that he would never take
the gig because it's such a

312
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,800
punishing grind.
I mean, Johnny was exhausted all

313
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,600
the time and his competitors
would tell him nobody should

314
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,640
ever do this job.
He made it look really easy.

315
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,200
They would have people like
Arnold Palmer or Joe name it or

316
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,160
Lauren Green from Bonanza try to
guest host The Tonight Show and

317
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:32,160
Johnny would watch at home and
just be so amused that because

318
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,120
people thought that they could
do this job, but it was a

319
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:39,040
really, really tough job that he
was just born to do this.

320
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,680
And Seinfeld.
It took him 5 appearances to get

321
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,000
called over to finally to sit
down with Johnny.

322
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,600
But when he did, he did the show
for like 20 years, 22 what at

323
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,720
two years, something like that.
It was a long time and and

324
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,720
definitely Carson loved him or
about 12 years a Rep that a

325
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,920
dozen years.
But Carson loved Seinfeld, and

326
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,880
in fact, Seinfeld's final taping
of his sitcom.

327
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,720
Carson sent Steinfeld A
handwritten note saying how

328
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,079
happy and proud he was of
Steinfeld.

329
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,520
That's amazing.
Well, he was missed.

330
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,960
And again, I think it's that
connection that we all have.

331
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,480
People today don't realize, or
maybe they don't remember that,

332
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,160
you know, we all had one TV, if
you were lucky, that was in

333
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,720
color.
And if you were lucky you could

334
00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:24,520
at least get 6 channels, maybe
7, a bit more likely just two or

335
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,359
three.
So, and it was a time when we

336
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,440
would all sit around and
listening to my dad laugh is

337
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,760
something you never forget, you
know?

338
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,120
So I love watching on YouTube
like the Rodney Dangerfield

339
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:40,280
clips that have millions of
views with Johnny and Johnny.

340
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:43,440
Johnny would let the comedian
shine uniquely Johnny that he

341
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,760
would let make his guests look
good.

342
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,560
And some of those clips with
Rickles and and Dangerfield are

343
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,160
as funny as they were decades
ago.

344
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,440
And yeah, I, I definitely have
heard from people all around the

345
00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,840
country that it just will go on
YouTube.

346
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,160
But they're in about, you know,
feeling down or whatever.

347
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:00,840
And Carson will pick them their
mood up.

348
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:02,880
And there is something comfort
about him.

349
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,800
And I really do wish he was
still here today for us.

350
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,920
Well, Mark, I hope that people
listening will get your book.

351
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,360
It's called Love Johnny Carson.
Now.

352
00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,120
I'm worried that some, at some
point in the future, somebody's

353
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:16,960
going to make a biopic about
Johnny and they're going to get

354
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,600
it all wrong.
Any talk about anybody doing a

355
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,320
movie and trying to show him as
a struggling comedian with all

356
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,680
kinds of emotional issues, which
is what they tend to do with

357
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,120
everybody.
There's definitely been talk

358
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:31,520
about it.
I don't know if if anything's

359
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,160
going to happen.
I think he was a complicated

360
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,840
man.
I really do hope if they do

361
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,880
something that they show the
fact that the guy had friends in

362
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,920
his humanity and his generosity,
which has not really been

363
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,600
captured in any of the other
Carson books there was.

364
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,280
So I mean, he the guy when he
died left $180 million

365
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,080
foundation for charities, they
still are payout millions of

366
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,080
dollars every year.
The Johnny Carson foundation, he

367
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,280
was a decent man.
He was a good man with

368
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,360
definitely flaws.
I mean, he put all his time into

369
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:08,520
The Tonight Show and the
marriages and him as a father

370
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,160
suffered.
So there's definitely good

371
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:13,560
things and bad things.
But I really do hope that that

372
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,440
the humanity is shown if they do
do a take on Carson.

373
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,640
Isn't that amazing?
A guy for 30 years so powerful,

374
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,880
dominated American culture.
There hasn't been a movie about

375
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,400
him.
Well, that's because there's

376
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,360
nothing wrong with him.
See, they haven't found out some

377
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,080
you know, they need, they need
a, you know, some emotional.

378
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,000
Right on that.
Misogynist.

379
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,320
He was secretly A misogynist and
he, you know, who knows?

380
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,280
But anyway, well, listen, I I
hope they don't mess with the

381
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,280
legend.
Mark Malkoff is the author of

382
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:45,520
the book.
You've got to pick it up.

383
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,360
Love Johnny Carson.
You can't forget that.

384
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,400
And thank you so much.
I I look forward to prep.

385
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:52,920
Yeah.
A lot of fun.

386
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:56,240
The voices like say Bugs Bunny,
they bring the character to you

387
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,320
and then you see the character
and and work around that they.

388
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,200
Show me a picture of the
character, still a picture.

389
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,520
And then they show me a
storyboard which tells what this

390
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,360
character is going to do in the
cartoons, right?

391
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,120
And they said Bugs Bunny was a
tough little stinker, right?

392
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,120
So.
I had to make make him tough.

393
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:12,160
I thought, which is the toughest
voice, either Brooklyn or the

394
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,240
Bronx, right?
So I put the two of them

395
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:15,920
together, Doc.
That's how I got the voice for

396
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,880
bugs.
Daffy Duck.

397
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,440
Well, Daffy is affordable crazy
little duck.

398
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:30,160
He's always since he's better
than Bugs, and he says that

399
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:41,240
Bunny is despicable.
How about a Alright, I'll show

400
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,080
you a Nazi pig.
A Nazi pig.

401
00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,960
That's all.
This mine fine.